NCSY are Evil Haredim?

Updated: Reply from David Kelsey and Rebuttal

Jewschool’s David Kelsey has an idiotic rant (even by Jewschool standards) claiming that NCSY is destroying liberal kids by seducing them with Havdalah and teaching them to hate America and the Scientific Method. No really he says this. What have the boys and girls at Jewschool been smoking for Havdalah?

The conflicts created from teens adopting the ideologies of the haredi institutions NCSY guides them to include (but are not limited to): A rejection of scientific method, in accordance with the haredi leaders they report to; a postponement of college indefinitely; a rejection of secular education as a worthy goal in itself; a rejection of full-time secular college; a preference for maximum halachic (Jewish Law) compliance (hardly restricted to kashrut); acceptance of stringencies not recognized as halacha outside of the ultra-Orthodox; anti-Americanism; encouragement of restrictive haredi garb; a rejection of friends and even family members who aren’t Orthodox; a contempt for Modern Orthodoxy; a belief that haredi leaders are near-infallible, an acceptance of inferior status within the ultra-Orthodox because of their niddah conception and non-Orthodox background.

And then the evil Rabbis lure the kids into their gingerbread houses and make them read Rabbi Avigdor Miller. The really funny thing about this nonsense is that this is a mirror image of the paranoid nonsense that Haredim tell you about college.

Using David Kelsey’s non-logic if you recommend kids go to college, you’re encouraging them to become atheists, have unprotected sex, hate America, steal MP3’s, binge drink, worship Richard Dawkins and begin a life of atheistic STD infected America hating MP3 stealing. That’s just as stupid as the paranoid worst case scenarios David Kelsey trots out at Jewschool.

Most NCSY kids will not go on to Haredi institutions and many who do might actually want to because they find them more philosophically compatible. Many of the adult Baal Teshuvas I met also wanted religious extremes. Many joined Chassidic groups. That was their choice.

Painting Haredi institutions with a worst case scenario brush as America, women and modern orthodox hating beasts is as bigoted and stupid as if a Haredi writer were to caricature Modern Orthodox institutions as casual toward Halacha, filled with promiscuous sex and dedicated to teaching kids to kill Arabs all day.

And NCSY has expanded the public school population they serve tremendously. They control over 170 clubs in our public schools. Rabbi Burg is the “dean” of the Jewish “Student” Union.

And next they’re taking over the world! First the public school club. Then America. Then the world. Then Mars! Then the last remnants of sanity in David Kelsey’s rotted brain! Then Alpha Centauri! Then DimensionX. There’s no stopping NCSY! Warn your kids! Warn your dogs! Warn your talking plants! Their “Dean” is coming after you!

Even in this attempt to appear moderate in a Jewish newswire that primarily services secular and liberal Jewry, NCSY’s leader utterly ignores the concerns of secular and liberal Jewry. Excuse me for feigning shock and surprise.

David Kelsey is whining about Kiruv and Baal Tesuvah groups using a liberal and secular blog as a forum and pretending they’re the devil. Excuse me for feigning shock and surprise. My advice, if you don’t like NCSY, do better. I was never part of NCSY. What I saw was Modern Orthodox lite kids a long way from Harediville. So relax and take deep breaths.

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15 thoughts on “NCSY are Evil Haredim?

  1. Yudi says:

    They smoke their mothers shabbos tablecloths.
    I enjoy the truth you just tell it like it is.

  2. Louis Rothstein says:

    I think there is no medium road by both sides in this. Too bad all in all.
    Good post.

  3. […] Let’s look at Mohel’s actual rebuttals, which though few and far, exist in between the very great and justified outrage at me daring to question NCSY’s role in public school high school education and their wonderful role in helping to get our kids (but only a minority! And fuck the minority!) to attend haredi institutions. Most NCSY kids will not go on to Haredi institutions and many who do might actually want to because … […]

  4. DK says:

    You kiruvniks, whether RWMO or haredi, act like you own the public school system. You are in for a big surprise. This isn’t the NYC chapter of the UJA. Frummies can’t just take it over like that. It isn’t yours. You’ll see. Keep up the bulllsh-t. You will be packing up your gear and going pack to Teaneck/Passaic.

  5. Rich says:

    Surely you have something more than reductio ad absurdum?

    Oh yeah, ad hominem, and false analogies.

    You wanna take DK apart, this is not the way to do it. You wanna demonstrate that NCSY is solidly MO? This doesn’t do it. You are doing little more than complaining of his charges, you have certainly done nothing to refute them.

  6. samuraimohel says:

    I like the hysteria, ties in with the rest of the nonsense in your piece

    why don’t you bury the paranoia, stop lashing out at everyone and commit to doing good yourself instead of spewing rambling conspiracy theories

    Frummy? Dude, have you seen this blog? Try reading back more than a few posts.

    I’m not a Kiruvnik either, whatever the hell that is. I’m just a sane guy who finds your hysteria way over the top. I’m not outraged. I’m bored. And no it’s not my job to prove NCSY is solidly MO. It’s my job to point out how over the top your rhetoric is and how it kills your credibility

  7. DK says:

    “It’s my job to point out how over the top your rhetoric is and how it kills your credibility”

    You are certainly not a haredi, but you fight like a fucking haredi. Far too frequently, frummies use character assassination and and attempt to dismiss the messenger, not grapple with the questions or issues of the message, which was Rich’s point. You prove the person is crazy, and then you ignore him.

    JUST LIKE NCSY DID TO THOSE WHO COMPLAINED ABOUT LANNER ABUSING THEM. They were all crazy. Everyone so, so crazy.

    But it won’t work that way now, because I’m not appealing to Orthodox Jews primarily, or even Modern Orthodox Jews. I am trying to reach secular and liberal Jews. And once they understand the questions, well, our favorite underage frummifier is in big trouble. Secular and liberal Jewish aren’t going to listen to how crazy anyone is. They will demand answers.

    Additionally, I have not offered “conspiracy theories” at all but have documented problems in NCSY almost solely based on their own documents and writings. I invite everyone with an open mind to look at my 45 posts on The Kvetcher:http://kvetcher.jewschool.com/category/ncsy/

    Please note I have many additional posts on Jewschool, and they are composites of sorts.

    Here is a post which references NCSY misusing their clubs in order to guide the smartest middle class Jews in NY to declining offers to the best colleges in the nation in favor of Haredi shitholes: http://kvetcher.jewschool.com/2006/11/21/ncsy-wants-to-help-your-high-school/

    My main source in the above article link is the OU’s own Jewish Action from a year and a half ago which I quote.

  8. samuraimohel says:

    “You are certainly not a haredi, but you fight like a fucking haredi. Far too frequently, frummies use character assassination and and attempt to dismiss the messenger,”

    See that’s the paranoid mentality talking. Character assassination is a tactic. It has nothing to do with religion. Claiming that it’s something unique to Haredim is a paranoid delusion. Haredim are just a bunch of guys who wear black, learn more gemara and lead much the same lives at the end as everyone else. They’re not aliens from Mars.

    “JUST LIKE NCSY DID TO THOSE WHO COMPLAINED ABOUT LANNER ABUSING THEM. They were all crazy. Everyone so, so crazy.”

    Which is hardly unusual in any institution, including Catholic, Reform, Conservative or non-religious equally. It’s not about Haredim. It’s about power. Get that through your head.

    “But it won’t work that way now, because I’m not appealing to Orthodox Jews primarily, or even Modern Orthodox Jews. I am trying to reach secular and liberal Jews.”

    What you mean is you’re playing on prejudices and feeding bigotry with your own bigotry. How spectacular. Be sure to stoke the bonfires some.

    “Here is a post which references NCSY misusing their clubs in order to guide the smartest middle class Jews in NY to declining offers to the best colleges in the nation in favor of Haredi shitholes:”

    So? I can show you similar articles in mainstream magazines about kids being guided to turn down Harvard and spend their time building houses in Latin America or engaging in activism. Is that just as wrong?

    If you’re old enough to go to Harvard, you’re old enough to make your own choices. Now I’m sure the parents might prefer Harvard but it’s not the parents who are going there.

    Harvard isn’t happiness necessarily and an ivy league college can just as easily be a few hundred grand worth of debt through Sallie Mae, midterm suicide or overdoses or any of the other fun stuff. See life is a choice.

  9. DK says:

    Do parents have a right to know that NCSY has recruited underage kids into haredism, repeatedly boasted about it, and has done so from their public schools clubs falsely advertised as,

    “The mission of Jewish Student Union is to get more Jewish teens attending public high schools to do something Jewish! That’s it! It’s that simple!!!”

    Source: http://www.jsu.org/z_about.htm

    Do parents have a right to know? Yes or no?

  10. samuraimohel says:

    Haredism isn’t some cult. If kids decide they like it and grow up and stay Haredi, that’s their deal. No different than MO or any other denomination.

    Falsely advertised as what? They are doing something Jewish? Do you expect it to be nondenominational?

  11. DK says:

    “If kids decide they like it and grow up and stay Haredi, that’s their deal. No different than MO or any other denomination.”

    The haredi lifestyle is not something most parents want for their children. They should know it is something NCSY wants for their kids, but not for already MO kids.

    “Falsely advertised as what? They are doing something Jewish? Do you expect it to be nondenominational?”

    Do I? Hardly. But would someone who is looking at their website? Absolutely. That is how they are positioning themselves both online and to the press.

  12. Louis Rothstein says:

    Grief! This jewschool place has deep hatred issues it seems. What is their problem they seem to hate jews.
    Is the name of the blog anti-semitic? By that I mean is it mockery of Jews?
    Awful opinions in their replies to this Samurai post.

  13. samuraimohel says:

    “The haredi lifestyle is not something most parents want for their children. They should know it is something NCSY wants for their kids, but not for already MO kids.”

    It’s not about what the parents want. It’s about what the kids want.

    And I doubt very much NCSY wants kids to become Haredim. They want kids to be Orthodox and they use the resources they have.

    “Do I? Hardly. But would someone who is looking at their website? Absolutely. That is how they are positioning themselves both online and to the press.”

    Their website contains no content and looks like it was made by a 12 year old. Which one assumes it was

  14. DK says:

    “It’s not about what the parents want. It’s about what the kids want.”

    No. That’s where you are very wrong.

    “And I doubt very much NCSY wants kids to become Haredim. They want kids to be Orthodox and they use the resources they have.”

    They were quite content for decades sending public school kids into haredism, without Modern Orthodox options.

    Now it’s time to pay the piper.

  15. samuraimohel says:

    no it’s where you’re wrong

    kids choose their lives and parents who try to control their kids wind up losing them

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