No Deal Dude!

Responding to a comment on the Burn That New Testament post.

“Destroying jews and turning them into Christians” is a very simple, but very vauge phrase. It would be clear enough if there was a simple difference between Christian and Jew.”

Being members of two different religions with incompatible belief systems and separate deities seems pretty simple to me.

“The question is, does it destroy the jew? Isn’t a jew always a jew no matter his beliefs? And which jew is better? The secular who smokes on Shabat and eats pork, or the messianic who keeps kosher and shabat and believes in Jesus?”

You’re setting up a bunch of strawmen. Keeping Kosher and the Sabbath is not a Christian Baptist belief, Christian Baptist Messianics may practice these to some limited extent purely to get closer to Jews. It has no roots in the past and no long term future. Nor do Messianics as a distinct group. There isn’t even a distinct group of Messianics but hundreds of scattered groups most of whom aren’t Jewish anyway.

And yes it destroys the Jew. Your question is like asking, who’s a better American. The apathetic American or the one who gives up his American citizenship and moves to France.

The answer is readily apparent.

“If Messianic Jews were to receive scientology, j’s witness or mormon literature, they would most probably throw them awat discreetly and not collect them from people, burn them publicly and make unecessary headlines.”

Do you really want me to list the cases of Christians burning materials they find offensive in recent years, because it doesn’t just end with Harry Potter.

“The more exposed the Messianic Jews are in the media, the greater the interest. More people will read the New Testament saying “Let’s see what all the fuss is about”. More people will turn against orthodox and haredi judaism.”

More people aren’t going to read the NT, though I know you guys insist on believing that if you shove it enough in our faces you’ll make it an issue and a Win-Win for you.

You’re right that the goal of the Baptist sponsored Messianic groups is to get public exposure, but more to promote anti-semitism and solicit donations in the US and Europe and intimidate the Israeli government.

All because they’re a shell game with very few Jewish converts racked up.

“Besides, it’s the same hate, and the same wish to “burn away the evil among us” that is behind both book burnings. Where they start to burn books, they will soon enough burn people.”

So are the Christians who burn CD’s going to burn musicians too?

“You talk about hypocrisy, referring to book burnings of Harry Potter. Guess what? No one considers Harry Potter holy. Besides, it’s really not the same people. You can’t refer to “christians” as one single entity.”

Actually it’s many of the same Baptist churches who form the Messianic groups who do the burnings. They also burn CD’s and anything they consider Satanic or Pagan. With some that includes the Talmud and Kabbalah as well. While I haven’t heard of them organizing such burnings, that’s probably because they don’t have access to the materials in sufficient number.

The ravings of messianics like Aviah Cohen when it comes to the Talmud and Kabbalah make clear their hatred for it.

“I might as well just say that it’s the hight of hypocrisy of orthodox jews to be against Messianic missionaries when the Chabad-Lubavitch movement give out literature and promote their beliefs just as much.”

You guys keep pushing this one too and it goes nowhere. Chabad is a Jewish possible heresy which for now has not crossed the line into worshiping another god. From your perspective it would be like comparing Baptists to Catholics to Muslims.

“Last but not least, the outrage of Calev Myers and Victor Kalisher is not phony. The Christian support of Israel is not phony. There’s no game plan and no extermination of judaism.”

Sure it’s phony. And yes the extermination of Judaism is the game plan. That’s behind the Witnessing campaigns targeting “every Jew in the world”. Their words not mine.

Some grass roots level support for Israel among Christians is genuine. At the human level there are plenty of Christians who support Israel for genuinely biblical reasons. But the leadership has a cynical agenda and it’s either Anti-Jewish or financial.

“You are wrong. The pro-israeli christian community is opposing the creation of a palestinian state. Van Der Hoeven openly support Netanyahu and contributes to the building of settlements.”

And what has that “opposition” actually accomplished? Zippo. That same community has forcefully made its voice heard on issues it really cares about like abortion or gay marriage. Pro-Israel is something Conservative Christians do on the back burner to build a consensus with Conservative Jews.

” The CFI (Christian Friends of Israel) have donated to the building of a dining room and daily food for a jewish religious school in a settlement. In what way is that missionary? Contributing to a religious school is rather encouraging judaism, don’t you think?”

Maybe or maybe it’s buying influence. I have no idea. But I suspect in a few years more and more of those donations are going to be funneled toward missionary and messianic groups in Israel, even more so than they are already. And just enough will remain to keep anyone in authority in Israel from protesting.

“Finally, I encourage the phrase of “I respect your beliefs and ideas if you respect mine. Deal?” And rather than forbidding missionary work I encourage the idea of freedom of expression. You give me some missionary tractates of yours, I’ll give you some of mine. We’ll both learn something.”

No deal. I’m not interested in your beliefs and if you generally have faith in yours, you have no interest in mine. We’re not interesting in conducting a religious via missionaries. We want to be left alone to practice our beliefs. We want to do that without multibillion dollar campaigns being aimed at breaking us.

Respecting my beliefs means leaving them alone. Attacking those beliefs is the exact opposite of respect. Preying on the weak, the poor and children is downright vile and evil. Disguising yourselves as Jews is beneath contempt.

So no deal. Peace for peace is the only deal and peace means non-interference.

But if you’re serious, then consider the consequences of Jews opening up Churches, pretending to be Christians and creating their own cults aimed at Christians along with phony teen centers aimed at converting your kids. And then decide if it’s such a bargain.

7 thoughts on “No Deal Dude!

  1. thatdudeyouknow says:

    I just spent an hour writing an answer to this, and the internet flipped out and erased it.
    I hate my internet provider.

    In very short words – “Jews opening up Churches, pretending to be Christians and creating their own cults aimed at Christians along with phony teen centers aimed at converting your kids” sound like a really pathetic thing to do.

    But it’s more pathetic to think that you actually believe that the one and single goal of the Messianic Jews believing what they do, living as they do, practising their religion as they do – is to convert jews to christians.

    If that was true we would surely be pathetic. But as a Messianic Jewish settler in the west bank, I can tell you that I keep kosher out of strictly biblical reasons. I read Shma with my children and we sing Lecha Dodi every shabat. I do this because I believe in it. Not as a “disguise to convert jews”.

  2. samuraimohel says:

    Yeah it sounds like a really pathetic thing to do and it’s exactly what’s going on and it’s what behind the whole phony Messianic movement and many of the missionary tactics in Israel, including the phony teen centers, and children solicitating children with missionary materials.

    Messianic movements fall into two categories. The more professional ones funded by Protestant mainly Baptist churches as missionary outreach and the wackier cultic ones created locally usually with even weirder beliefs.

    Since you moved to Israel and are doing outreach, it’s pretty obvious which of these you are. The “settlement” is a deal clincher, it’s the current focus of that crowd. If I had the time to burn, I could nail down your exact stream and its agenda.

    And you’re not Jewish. At most you might have a Jewish grandfather.

  3. Its me! says:

    Why should one religion respect another? Elijah didnt respect the prophets of baal now did he?
    False religion is false religion and deserves no respect.

    If mainstream christianity “respected” Judaism they would not be trying to convert them. Thats simple enough. Since they do try, it means no respect for Judaism at all.

    I think christian presence in Israel should be on a vacation basis only.

  4. kamen no koku haku says:

    sore loser. that’s all you are. samurais are cool and mature. zen like. you know. if you think judaism is right, then be as cool as hell. conversion attempts won’t bother you. because the Truth is the Truth, right? but clearly you’re afraid for your tiny little truth, so you behave like the stupid teenage kid you are who instead of being a samurai cut his dick by accident…

  5. samuraimohel says:

    Advanced Zen means knowing when to stop being Zen and kick ass. It’s taught to all Samurai in the advanced class.

    “you know. if you think judaism is right, then be as cool as hell. conversion attempts won’t bother you. because the Truth is the Truth, right?”

    Yeah too bad, God doesn’t think so. Since he’s clearly against people worshiping idols.

    But I’ll be cool when you people stop preying on us, you dickless wonder. Until then take your asskicking like a man.

  6. kamen no koku haku says:

    i am girl…

  7. samuraimohel says:

    no you’re a dog, as in on the internet no one knows you are

    now beat it

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